PSC Meeting 6 Dec 2013

Proposed meeting time:

Friday, Dec 06, 1500 UTC
next meeting: http://hub.qgis.org/projects/quantum-gis/wiki/PSC_Meeting_3_Jan_2014

Members Present:

Marco Hugentobler
Richard Duivenvoorde
J├╝rgen Fischer
Anita Graser
Tim Sutton

Agenda:

from Paolo's mail:

  • next QGIS HF
  • QGIS Trade Mark protection
  • joining Software Freedom Conservancy
    • notes from Anita: What are our reasons/goals joining Software Freedom Conservancy? I also just learned about Location Tech at Eclipse Foundation which seems to do something similar (http://locationtech.org/members).
  • rules for wiki cleanup/removal
  • donations handling (now too complex and cumbersome)

from Anita:

  • logo (should we reopen this discussion or let it be until 3.0)
  • non-profit (started looking into Austrian situation, but feeling a bit overwhelmed)

from Marco:

  • Pull requests (is current situation ok or are there suggestions for better procedure)?

from Matthias:

from Richard:

  • password files, email and dns (fedora.qgis.org etc)

Log

16:00 < jef> where's anita?
16:00 < timlinux> Maybe confused over the time?
16:00 < timlinux> Ill tweet her
16:03 -!- anitagraser [~Anita@chello084114132079.11.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #qgis_meeting_131206
16:03 < anitagraser> hi
16:03 <@mhugent> hi anitagraser
16:04 < duiv> hi anitagraser 
16:04 < timlinux> hey anitagraser 
16:04 < anitagraser> timlinux: you here :P
16:04 < jef> hi *
16:04 < anitagraser> who'll be leading the meeting?
16:04 < timlinux> anitagraser: yup!
16:05 <@mhugent> so todays topics are at http://hub.qgis.org/wiki/quantum-gis/PSC_Meeting_6_Dec_2013
16:05  * duiv just updated :-)
16:05 <@mhugent> since Paolo cannot be here today, should we start with Anitas topics and catch Paolos topics at the end?
16:05 < anitagraser> fine with me
16:06 < duiv> well, as long as we talk about QGIS HF 
16:06 < timlinux> +1
16:07 < anitagraser> Ok, I'll be quick. Does anyone want to reopen the discussion about the logo?
16:07 < jef> 0
16:07 < anitagraser> I vote for keeping it for 2.x
16:07 < timlinux> 0
16:07 < duiv> 0
16:07 <@mhugent> I also think it is better to change logo not before 3
16:08 < anitagraser> ok, then we keep it for 2.x
16:08 < anitagraser> second point was mentioned at the last hackfest
16:08 < anitagraser> I looked into opening a non-profit in Austria
16:08 < timlinux> ok
16:08 < anitagraser> It seems doable but everything will have to be done in German. I'm not comfortable doing that alone.
16:09 <@mhugent> Is the procedure complicated?
16:09 < timlinux> BTW It seems I can open one in South Africa quite easily
16:09 < anitagraser> that would be English at least
16:09 < timlinux> yes
16:10 < timlinux> For me I'm not particularly bothered if it is in German
16:10 < anitagraser> mhugent: maybe not too complicated, but we'll have to keep submitting documents in German as long as the non-profit is "alive" 
16:10 < timlinux> I guess Richard can also fake his way through reading a bit of German too
16:10 < duiv> lol, exactly, faking
16:11 < anitagraser> the goal was to have a non-profit to get a bank account?
16:11 < anitagraser> or was there more?
16:11 < timlinux> anitagraser: there is more
16:11 < timlinux> I have been working quite a bit with HOT and with WorldBank and AusAID
16:12 < timlinux> basically if we have not for profit status we can actually go to organisations like AusAID and request a grant
16:12 < timlinux> so we basically think up something we want to do e.g. multithreading or whatever
16:12 < timlinux> and then take a project proposal to them
16:13 < timlinux> I think this can open many doors to us
16:13 < anitagraser> from my original research mail: "We need two founders who are not required to be Austrian citizens. It's also necessary to appoint two people to handle the finances. Since all documents will be in German, most work would have to be done be the German-speaking part of the community. As long as we are dealing with amounts below one million Euros, we only need to do a statement of revenues and expenditures and no extensi
16:13 < jef> truncated after "and no extensi" 
16:14 < timlinux> OK I reckon it will be a while before we are 'struggling' with the fact that our running budget is > 1 million
16:14 < anitagraser> no extensive book keeping is necessary." 
16:14 < anitagraser> should we try Austria, South Africa or something else
16:15 < timlinux> The bigger issue is who will do the admin work - it basically puts it onto the german speaking psc members
16:15 < timlinux> while I can fake my way to read german
16:15 < timlinux> I couldnt fake my way to write it for such documents
16:16 < anitagraser> maybe we should have to whole psc to decide?
16:18 < jef> are there other known options?   are there pros and cons for austria or sa?
16:18 < timlinux> anitagraser: yes for the actual decision we should put it to a formal vote - but it would be good to narrow down a list of proposed options now
16:19 < anitagraser> jef: for Austria, I think a pro would be that it seems to be quite cheap (< 100 eur) to set up
16:19 < timlinux> Only con with SA option that I know of is that it would basically be a single point of failure (me)
16:19 < anitagraser> source: https://www.help.gv.at/Portal.Node/hlpd/public/content/22/Seite.220300.html
16:20 < timlinux> though I could probably rope in some folks from the local community
16:20 < anitagraser> mhugent: what's the Swiss situation?
16:20 < timlinux> pros with SA option ar ethat overheads would probably be very low
16:21 < timlinux> compared to any european option
16:21 <@mhugent> It's also quite easy to found a Verein in Switzerland (like the swiss user group)
16:21 < anitagraser> mhugent: can it be done in English?
16:22 <@mhugent> I need to check. From a quick look at the austrian document, it seems the procedure is easier
16:22 < anitagraser> mhugent: sry, which one is easier?
16:22 <@mhugent> the Swiss one. As far as I know, the cost is 0.00 Fr.
16:23 < timlinux> cant beat the price :-)
16:23 <@mhugent> But I don't know if it is 100% comparable to the Austrian Verein
16:24 < anitagraser> no idea either. should we try to compile a comparison matrix with pros and cons of Austria, Switzerland and SA (+ whatever else comes up) and then decide in the next meeting?
16:24 <@mhugent> Or if Worldbank & co. do recognize it as non-profit
16:24 < anitagraser> can we ask worldbank?
16:24 < timlinux> I can ask Abby yes
16:25 < timlinux> http://www.services.gov.za/services/content/Home/OrganisationServices/registeringabusiness/registerasectio21company/en_ZA
16:25 < timlinux> for reference above is the SA procedure
16:26 < timlinux> I think the Swiss one is cheaper to register :-)
16:26 < anitagraser> so the next step is to ask Abby if a Swiss Verein would be ok?
16:27 < timlinux> Yes - is there a link about them in Eng?
16:27 <@mhugent> I'm trying to find one and will mail the link to timlinux
16:28 < anitagraser> ok, should we then continue with mhugent's agenda point?
16:28 <@mhugent> there is a wikipedia article in english: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Verein
16:28 < timlinux> ok
16:29 <@mhugent> Ok, let's go on with the pull requests
16:29 < anitagraser> as far as I've seen the problem seem to be that people send pull requests which sometimes are not accted on for a long time, right?
16:30 <@mhugent> To discuss if people are happy about the current procedure or if there are better ideas
16:30 <@mhugent> anitagraser: yes, that's one problem
16:31 < anitagraser> is it purely a manpower problem? 
16:31 < timlinux> mhugent: is there a suggestion of a 'better' way to handle them?
16:31 <@mhugent> anitagraser: from my experience yes
16:32 <@mhugent> timlinux: there have been ideas around closing old PR automatically with a kind message to the author
16:33 <@mhugent> or reassigning to a different dev after some time
16:33 < anitagraser> -1 why automatically, shouldn't we at least write exactly why the request was not acted on?
16:33 < timlinux> perhaps we need a good readme
16:33 < timlinux> about how to get your patch accepted 'socially' in the project
16:34 <@mhugent> anitagraser: agreed, automatically closing is not good
16:34 < timlinux> I notice some e.g. nyall make their patches much more approachable than others
16:34 < anitagraser> so the problem is the way the patches are submitted? then +1 for a how2
16:34 < timlinux> and others like like e.g. Matthias give you a nudge if you havent acted on their patch
16:34 <@mhugent> sometimes it is already a bit of work to write a sound statement why a patch is not considered
16:35 < jef> and there's still no way to get a list of pr assigned to you.
16:35 < anitagraser> jef: ok, so there is a infrastructure issue as well?
16:35 < timlinux> I wonder if we can do it with their api
16:35 < jef> timlinux: me too, but that doesn't help ;)
16:36 < timlinux> http://developer.github.com/v3/pulls/
16:36 < timlinux> jef: well we could write a simple web app to do it
16:36 < timlinux> or command line app
16:37 < duiv> well, as long as these are <50 PR's I do not have a problem to bump someone once a week or so...
16:38 < timlinux> http://thechangelog.com/git-pulls-command-line-tool-for-github-pull-requests/ <-- maybe that
16:38 < timlinux> though its not clear if that use is the submitter or the assignee
16:39 < jef> timlinux: ok, I should probably look again.  but last time I didn't find anything before I got distracted again ;)
16:40 <@mhugent> looks good. Maybe a shell script could produce such a list
16:40 < timlinux> :-)
16:41 < timlinux> So from my side I think the only thing we should do is have a nice readme in developer docs explaining the social elements of how to get your pull request accepted
16:41 < anitagraser> +1 who can write that?
16:41 <@mhugent> +1
16:41 < jef> do we favour discussion in the PR comments or on the list?
16:42 < timlinux> I can write it if others review it
16:42 <@mhugent> thanks timlinux
16:42 < duiv> jef: sometimes also been done via an issue
16:42 < jef> do we favour discussion in the PR comments or on the list or in an issue?
16:43 < timlinux> for me I prefer in the PR comments
16:43 < anitagraser> PR comments seem to provide the best way to archive the discussion where it matters
16:43 < timlinux> so everything is in one place
16:43 <@mhugent> PR comments are also more convenient to me
16:44 < duiv> well, yes, but (I'm talking about this keyboard shortcuts now), at a certain point you would want others to look into it
16:45 < duiv> for which we can off course point to the PR comments then ...
16:45 < duiv> PR comment we do?
16:46 < anitagraser> +1
16:46 <@mhugent> +1
16:46 < jef> right keyboard shortcuts and the rendering performance patch are particular examples.  it's not do this and that to get it pulled, but more general discussion.
16:47 <@mhugent> those are the more complicated ones...
16:48 <@mhugent> jef: do you think those general discussions should rather go to the mailing list?
16:48 < timlinux> For me it no problem if the discussion spills over to the lists / ticket
16:48 < timlinux> but the actual summary of decision and direct discussion with PR author in the PR make sense
16:49 < timlinux> as (e.g. with logo competition) in the general discussion list its very hard to know what decision if any was made
16:49 < timlinux> or what it is people actually want done
16:50 <@mhugent> Ok, any other opinions or shall we go to the next topic?
16:50 < duiv> can we as psc go over the PR's to judge and remove some?
16:51 < duiv> not now, but anywhere in upcoming time
16:51 < anitagraser> I don't think that's withing my skill set
16:51 <@mhugent> I'm going through them from time to time
16:52 < duiv> I see, but some of them stay there, without an action. Should we not 'do something' with those
16:52 < duiv> telling people: "sorry nobody can judge this at this moment" or.. I don't know
16:52 < anitagraser> duiv: I could try to help find those and raise them for discussion ... if that helps
16:52 < timlinux> duiv: I think we must put the responsibility to the PR author to do something
16:53 < timlinux> ie in the README we explain 'if nobody actions your request, please contact Marco as final arbitrator'
16:53 < duiv> ok, that is/was not clear to me... plz put that in your readme then
16:53 <@mhugent> +1
16:53 < anitagraser> +1
16:54 < duiv> next point?
16:54 < jef> +1 (also he could first ping the assigned dev)
16:54 < timlinux> yes
16:54 < anitagraser> yes, next point
16:54 <@mhugent> even better, ping first assigned dev and then me
16:54 < jef> yes, s/also/although/
16:54 <@mhugent> It's close to 17h. Shall we go on with HF?
16:55 < anitagraser> +1
16:55 < timlinux> +1
16:55 < jef> +1
16:55 < anitagraser> should we just vote on the location, or do we want to discuss?
16:56 <@mhugent> As far as I remember, it has already been decided to be in Vienna. Is that correct?
16:56 < duiv> that was what I thought too, but Paolo told me that both options are open
16:56 < timlinux> Are we going to dovetale with the c-tribe hf?
16:56 < anitagraser> mhugent: That was my impression until recently. Now not so sure.
16:57 < anitagraser> timlinux: If I remember correctly (probably some of Paolo's mails), C-tribe already got a bigger venue. 
16:57 < jef> IIRC that was the only open question, wasn't it?  is the venue big enough.
16:58 < duiv> not sure. I talked to stephan two week ago, and at that time he was waiting for paolos anwer
16:58 < duiv> so stephan was waiting on us, to ask for a bigger venue
16:58 < anitagraser> then we should move quick
16:58 < duiv> so: should we just decide: vienna we try first
16:58 < anitagraser> +1
16:58 < jef> +1
16:58 <@mhugent> +1 for Vienna
16:59 < timlinux> yes
16:59 < timlinux> +1
16:59 < duiv> +1
16:59 < timlinux> Please order some warmer weather than last time :-)
16:59 < anitagraser> :D
16:59 <@mhugent> We should do a HF in South Africa somewhen :-)
16:59 < anitagraser> next point then?
16:59 < anitagraser> releases?
16:59 < duiv> timlinux: I heard mkuhn wants to take you into the snow
17:00 < duiv> I'll write an email to psc list cc'ing stephan then
17:00 < anitagraser> duiv: thanks
17:00 < timlinux> Anyway I think it would be good to collaborate with other osgeo projects
17:01 -!- jef changed the topic of #qgis_meeting_131206 to: http://hub.qgis.org/wiki/quantum-gis/PSC_Meeting_6_Dec_2013
17:01 < duiv> releases
17:01 < timlinux> mhugent: any time!
17:02  * anitagraser has 5 more minutes
17:02 <@mhugent> releases: '2.2 when will be freeze, when will be release (I suppose a deadline by date and not features is agreed on already)'
17:02 < duiv> should we create a wiki or web page with these dates? iirc jef has these alreayd more or less 'fixed'?
17:03 < jef> http://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/qgis-developer/2013-November/029528.html
17:03 < duiv> just for 2014 ;-)
17:04 < anitagraser> seems like the release questions are answered then 
17:04 < jef> yes, the schedule is not too cron friendly. :)
17:04 <@mhugent> Ok, that is clear. So next point: '2.0.2 will this exist? How much is required to get into release-2_0 before tagging this?'
17:05 < jef> I thought we agreed not to do point releases - but apparently not everyone agrees.
17:05 < timlinux> jef: you are the release manager :-)
17:05 < duiv> I think we agreed on this already, yes
17:05 < timlinux> For me master works very stably and I would be happy to go straight on to 2.2
17:06 <@mhugent> +1
17:06 < duiv> +1
17:06 < jef> +1
17:06 < anitagraser> +1
17:06 < duiv> should I create a web page in the website somewhere with these dates?
17:06 < anitagraser> +1 if jef agrees
17:07 < jef> +1
17:07 < duiv> linking to a page here: http://qgis.org/en/site/forusers/index.html#download
17:08 <@mhugent> Ok, so last discussion point:'password files, email and dns (fedora.qgis.org etc)'. Richard?
17:08 < duiv> last HF we created a password file, but it is still almost empty
17:08 < duiv> I added something recently
17:09 < anitagraser> duiv: I have none to contribute
17:09 < duiv> for example: where should I create a new email address or qgis.org subdomain
17:09 < timlinux> I will add the docker etc vm logins once I finally finish them
17:10 < duiv> timlinux: I created a user 'qgis' at docker
17:10 < duiv> so we can upload image at qgis/timsbuildthingie
17:10  * anitagraser has to go, sry. we should try to meet again soon.
17:11 < timlinux> yes
17:11 < timlinux> I really like the idea of meeting once a month
17:11 < timlinux> first fri of the month or whatever
17:11 < timlinux> though maybe fri is difficult if people are going away for the weekend
17:11 <@mhugent> Sounds good
17:11 <@mhugent> fri would be ok for me
17:12 < duiv> timlinux: let's keep it friday, untill you are away for more then 3 times 
17:12 < timlinux> ok
17:12 < anitagraser> i'm travelling every once in a while on fr afternoon/evening
17:12 < anitagraser> bug will try to give my best with the schedule
17:12  * anitagraser waves goodbye
17:12 < duiv> bye anitagraser 
17:12 < jef> bye anita
17:12 <@mhugent> bye anitagraser
17:12 < timlinux> cya anitagraser 
17:13 < duiv> timlinux: mkuhn has created a docker to build rpm's
17:13 < timlinux> yes
17:13 < duiv> we were thinking about making them available at fedora.qgis.org redhat.qgis.org or so
17:13  * jef didn't create anything on the new machine
17:14 < timlinux> btw we have made a user map for inasafe which I was going to propose to deploy as replacement for users.qgis.org
17:14 < timlinux> you can see it at http://users.inasafe.org
17:14 < duiv> I've been looking in our godaddy account, but I cannot find where to do this
17:14 < timlinux> duiv: its a bit hidden
17:14 < timlinux> 1 sec I will log in and look
17:15 < duiv> by the way: I acquired qgis.com recently
17:15 < duiv> almost by accident
17:15 < timlinux> oh good
17:15 < timlinux> who had it?
17:16 < duiv> I don't know. I accidently went to it, filled in some form
17:16 < duiv> and one day later was paypalling some money to an american guy
17:16 < duiv> thinking it should be scam
17:16 < duiv> but it worked :-)
17:17 < timlinux> wow what did it cost
17:18 < duiv> 150 dollar
17:18 < timlinux> urf
17:18 < timlinux> you should ask Paolo to refund it to you
17:18 < timlinux> its good to have it in our collection
17:18 < duiv> well, I think that is not so much for a 4 letter com domain anyway
17:19 < duiv> back to our meeting...
17:19 < timlinux> we should keep a list of which domains we actually have
17:20 < duiv> so timlinux you say I can make fedora.qgis.org via the webinterface of godaddy?
17:20 < duiv> if so I will find it
17:20 < duiv> and who is doing the email addresses?
17:20 < timlinux> You *should* be able to
17:21 < timlinux> I am looking there to
17:21 < timlinux> me
17:21 < timlinux> I cant recall if google apps is in the KeepassX store
17:21 < duiv> ok, because we had a volunteer to react to 'contact@qgis.org' or so
17:21 < duiv> no it is not there 
17:23 < timlinux> so you want me to add an email for that? dont we already have info@qgis.org
17:24 < timlinux> will look
17:24 < duiv> timlinux: I'll look it up, and sent you an email about it
17:25 < duiv> do we want to go over one of the other points of paolo?
17:25 <@mhugent> I need to leave office soon
17:25  * duiv too
17:25 < timlinux> ok mhugent cya!
17:32 < duiv> afk for now. Heading home...
17:34 < timlinux> ok cya
17:34 <@mhugent> bye
17:34 -!- mhugent [~quassel@164.8.24.31.ftth.as8758.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:23 -!- anitagraser [~Anita@chello084114132079.11.15.vie.surfer.at] has left #qgis_meeting_131206 []
20:05 -!- anitagraser [~Anita@chello084114132079.11.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #qgis_meeting_131206
20:06 < anitagraser> will the logs be put online? where?